Chapter Discussion One Piece Chapter 965: The Kurozumi Clan Conspiracy

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Learning about Orochi's backstory and how he along with the old hag conspired to take over Wano was very interesting, but who is this mysterious old hag. Not only does she have the Mane Mane no Mi which is now Bon Clay's devil fruit meaning that she's dead in the current timeline but one of the faces she turned into was a young Shiki, also it makes sense that Orochi would have help this entire time when trying to become Shogun.
I'm just curious who killed her.
 
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Learning about Orochi's backstory and how he along with the old hag conspired to take over Wano was very interesting, but who is this mysterious old hag. Not only does she have the Mane Mane no Mi which is now Bon Clay's devil fruit meaning that she's dead in the current timeline but one of the faces she turned into was a young Shiki, also it makes sense that Orochi would have help this entire time when trying to become Shogun.
Its indeed Young Shiki so we can expect that this old hag was a member of ROCKS. So the chance is a high she might end responsible for the deal between Kaidou and Orochi.

Interisting is that we also saw the old hag during the Mountain God incidents.
First it was shown that she have knowledge about the mountain god. Second time she was shown framing Oden.
So we can expect Orochi and the old hag were also responsible for the mountain god incidents.

Also @Salah Eddine after reading the chapter I have to say you was right. Its indeed very similiar to Doflamingo - Trebol situation. Düring spoiler I didn't notice there was a flashback telling us the beginning of Orochis story.
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I'm just curious who killed her.
During spoiler I expected it would end up being Orochi himself, but afer Reading the chapter I expect it will be a natural dead or she will die sacrificing herself to protect Orochi.
 
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Also @Salah Eddine after reading the chapter I have to say you was right. Its indeed very similiar to Doflamingo - Trebol situation. Düring spoiler I didn't notice there was a flashback telling us the beginning of Orochis story.
Glad you agree, and Doffy isn't the only one he is similar to
I believe that Orochi is like Smaller Version of Teach and it explains why Teach is a D. but different than others
Just like Orochi (& his Family) is different than other Great Families, BB is the Traitor of D. Family

So yeah Orochi & Doffy were both among Ruler Families, then the Family was dishonored, then they lived in Poverty & as Orphans & then someone gave them Power & inspired them for Revenge and then they became Kings themselves

The Pattern here is that the Subordinate is the one who Inspires out of hate, and the Chosen One is set to have Revenge against the People he was once among them. Also Chosen One possess a Power that his People aren't familiar with (Wano doesn't know DFs & WG doesn't have CoC)
Which is kinda similar to Enel too, since he had a DF where no other Sky Islander had one, he was willing to destroy anyone except those who follow him just like Doffy & his Family & he had Revenge against his People (Destroyed Birka)

If we apply this on Im-Sama, then this could mean that Im Sama is Actually from D. Family, Betrayed them and was dishonored, Gorosei gave him Power (Empty Throne or National Treasure or whatever) and he is willing to have Revenge against them (Removing Light)

We can also notice that in each group, there is an opposition, Orochi vs Sukiyaki & Kin'emon, Doffy vs Riku & Kyros, Enel vs Gan Fall & Wiper, & finally Im vs Luffy/Joy Boy? & Dragon

So as you can see, there is always an Inspired Traitor (Orochi, Enel, Doffy, Im, Hody Jones .. etc) With Unique Power (DF, CoC, National Treasure, Drugs .. etc) who takes the Throne (Shogun, Empty Throne, King, God .. etc) from the one who deserves it (Gan Fall, Riku, Neptune .. etc) and defeats the Leader of Revos (Kin'emon, Wiper, Kyros, Dragon .. etc) while there is someone who died inspiring Good (Oden, Noland, Otohime, Corazon, Joy Boy? .. etc) and let's not forget the Promise/Prophecy ofc (Toki's Prophecy, Corazon's Last Words, Otohime's Last Words or Shyarly's Prophecy, Shandians Promise ... etc)

This is exactly similar to Teach honestly, he betrayed WB Pirates, replaced WB as Yonko & had a Plan since Young Age, have a Unique Power unlike rest of his Group which is Two DFs and defeated the ones trying to stop him (Payback War) who were inspired by WB who died and just like Orochi killed Oden, Hody Jones killed Otohime ... etc it was BB who killed WB and ofc we had WB's Last Words

Same thing will apply to Im Sama (Who is represented by WG & CDs too) who apparently betrayed certain Group before (Could be D.) to become Ruler, after he was inspired by Loyal Servants (Gorosei or CDs) and given Unique Power set to Revenge (Remove Light & Kill certain People), he will defeat those who oppose him (Revos Army), but he will be defeated by Pirates (SHs Alliance) who were inspired by Roger (Who was executed by WG themselves) himself fulfilling the earliest Prophecies & Promises

It's also worth mentioning that there are those Middle Men in every story that inspire Luffy and serve as connection between Luffy, Inspiring Figure & Villain who are Ace (Adopted son of WB who inspired Luffy who will take revenge on Teach), Shanks (Who was given Straw Hat by Roger who inspired Luffy to become Pirate King), Cricket (Who is from Noland's Family who inspired Luffy to find Golden City & ring the Bell),
Jinbe (Who was member of Sun Pirates & Royal Guard who told Luffy the Story to inspire him to defeat Hody & rescue Fishmen Island),
Law (Who made Alliance with Luffy to defeat Doffy since he wanted revenge for Corazon) & finally Momo (Son of Oden who asked Luffy to Alliance to defeat Orochi & Kaido)

This Pattern can be applied to Most OP Arcs (Water 7, Alabasta, Drum Island ... etc) and there are much more than just these Similarities, there are also Damsel In Distress Characters (Vivi, Rebecca, Shirahoshi, Nami, Robin .... etc) , Corrupting Product (SAD, Smiles, Rain Powder ... etc) & ofc an Object that is fought for (Golden City, Poneglyph, Pluton Blueprints, One Piece ... etc)
This also suggests that Im-Sama is also looking for One Piece which is big hint to God's Valley

Sorry for Long Posts lmao i just love saying all ideas at once in hope that u like some of them
I just wanted to explain in detail, that all One Piece Story follows a Certain Pattern that Oda uses
That's why he said once in Interview that when he started he only had Ending in Mind, the rest he just fills it with things that lead to that Ending, so he ends up making Mini Story Version of the Major Ending/One Piece Story
 
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So yeah Orochi & Doffy were both among Ruler Families
Btw how do you think about the possibility that Kurozumi was no original ruler family?
Like I mentioned the Name of the great Wano clans are
  1. Moon of Light (Flower Capital)
  2. Moon of Frost (Ringo)
  3. Black Coal (Kuri?, Would explain why it became an exil)
  4. Moon of Hare (Hakumai? Uzuki (April) like Shimotsuki (November) only one named after a month)
  5. Moon of Heaven (Kibi?)
  6. Moon of Wind (Udon?)
Somehow Kurozumi Clan is outstanding.
Another thing I found interisting that it seems like the Uzuki-Clan, the Amatsuki-Clan and Fuugetsu-Clan got completly annihilated by the betrayel of the Kurozumi-Clan.

I mean that neither Oden nor Izo recognized that Toki was a member of a great Wano Clan hinted this already.
 
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Btw how do you think about the possibility that Kurozumi was no original ruler family?
I mean we have.
  1. Moon of Light
  2. Moon of Frost
  3. Black Coal
  4. Moon of Hare
  5. Moon of Heaven
  6. Moon of Wind
Somehow Kurozumi Clan is outside.
Another thing I found interisting that it seems like the Uzuki-Clan, the Amatsuki-Clan and Fuugetsu-Clan got completly annihilated by the betrayel of the Kurozumi-Clan.

I mean neither Oden nor Izo recognized that Toki was a member of a great Wano Clan.
If we think about D. Family who are obviously many different families connected (Trafalgar, Monkey, Gol ... etc) we notice something
D. Families were definitely united once and obviously knew each other, so why add the initial D. to your name ?
I think it's because they were annihilated, separated, defeated .. etc (Which we already know from Clover of Ohara)
So remaining Families decided to add Initial D. to their Names so that they can recognize & trust each other & know they were united once

Another thing to notice is that we confirmed certain Allies of Ancient Kingdom & D. Family & yet they don't have Initial D.
(Such as Fishmen, Zou, Water 7, Wano, Shandians ... etc) so why ? why not Allies add D. to their Names ??

I believe it's because these People weren't Lost, they weren't harmed or defeated, they stayed United in their Country (Fishmen Island & Wano & Zou & Shandians were Isolated & it's People United and rarely left) so this confirms that D. Initial was only given to Remnants of People who Lost & were divided, in other words People of Ancient Kingdom who lost their Home

If we compare this knowledge to Orochi & Blackbeard, we can notice that we could be looking at Outsiders
They aren't simply Betrayers, they are really Outsiders, both Orochi & BB's Families joined those Great Families out of Greed and aiming for Power (Just like Orochi himself made his way to become Shogun & betrayed Sukiyaki & Oden, Teach too planned his way to become Yonko & betrayed WB & Ace)

In other words, i believe that Orochi's Family wasn't One of Great Families & BB's Family wasn't among D. Families, they are False Ones
And just like Ancient Kingdom Families have D. in their Names but currently don't know it's Origin & Meaning so can't know it's True Members,
Wano Families too have Moon in their names but currently don't know it's Origin & Meaning so don't know each other well

Until someone gets interested in History and starts a Journey to find Answers, but is then killed and inspired Next Generation
Roger Journey to find out about D. Meaning and died to inspire Luffy & Co. and defeat Teach
Oden Journey to find out Origin of Kozuki Family and died to inspire Momo & Co. and defeat Orochi

Interestingly in both Stories, there seems to be a Second Major Figure who is the reason all those Families were defeated
In Wano, Orochi had Kaido who defeated those Families and as for Ancient Kingdom, i believe it was Im who defeated them
So just like Wano Arc is about fighting Orochi The Betrayer & False Shogun + Kaido King of The Beasts
Final War will be about fighting Blackbeard The Betrayer & False D. + Im King of The World
(This is a MAJOR hint that Im-Sama could indeed be Rocks D. Xebec himself, which explains why Oda decided to include this Rocks Sub Plot to the story in first place and teased Rocks so much even though he is supposedly dead, and the fact that Teach named his Ship after Xebec and is very similar to him strengthen this, it was Rocks dream to sit on that Empty Throne anyway)

So yeah, this is why i think Orochi's Family Name is different and why Oda makes Families not recognize each other on purpose and ask about meaning of their Names (For example: Oden Flashback started with question about Origin of Kozuki and why they closed Wano)
 
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If we compare this knowledge to Orochi & Blackbeard, we can notice that we could be looking at Outsiders
They aren't simply Betrayers, they are really Outsiders, both Orochi & BB's Families joined those Great Families out of Greed and aiming for Power (Just like Orochi himself made his way to become Shogun & betrayed Sukiyaki & Oden, Teach too planned his way to become Yonko & betrayed WB & Ace)
But the name Marshall D. Teach follows the normal pattern of the D. names. And we can assume that Marshall D. is not the only evil D. family, jus recently learned about Rocks D. Xebec.

But Orochis Clan is different. I mean Oda could have called his clan Darkmoon, Blackmoon or even Newmoon, but he decided to call him Blackcoal Orochi. Thats super strange.
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So yeah, this is why i think Orochi's Family Name is different and why Oda makes Families not recognize each other on purpose and ask about meaning of their Names (For example: Oden Flashback started with question about Origin of Kozuki and why they closed Wano)
I am hoping for Hiyori have knowledge about the Wano clans from her parents. And will reveal her knowledge once they enter Wano.
2-3 chapters to go...I am so impatient.
 
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But the name Marshall D. Teach follows the normal pattern of the D. names. And we can assume that Marshall D. is not the only evil D. family, jus recently learned about Rocks D. Xebec.

But Orochis Clan is different. I mean Oda could have called his clan Darkmoon, Blackmoon or even Newmoon, but he decided to call him Blackcoal Orochi. Thats super strange.
No, Orochi's Family too follows the Pattern, i mean yeah, the word "Moon" wasn't used, but Black Coal is definitely related, it's clearly Opposite of Moon, for example in Sky Island they worshiped Vearth which is Land/Earth/Rock and Enel saw the Moon as Vearth too

So the pattern here is that Moon = Vearth = Rock, and Coal is indeed a Rock
So Orochi's Name is clearly opposite of other Names, don't forget that Oda isn't just trying to mislead the Character, he tries to mislead us too
If he named him Blackmoon, it would be so obvious

But when giving it more thought it's like other Families Names mean Moon Rock/Land while Orochi's name means Black Rock/Coal/Land
And ofc this is related to Moon People (As seen in Enel's Cover Story) who are theorized to be the ones who started Ancient Kingdom
And just like Sky Islanders we saw in Jaya & Skypiea Arcs, they most probably treasure Land too

That's why i think D. = Moon = Vearth = Land = Rock = Home ..... etc

This is also heavily related to the fact that Wano is combination of Islands/Lands joined together (By Oars)
What if Wano was created to bring out Something, Four Islands connected to make a Fifth appear
(Similar to what Minks said about One Piece in Zou)
And looking at those Family Names, they really resemble Seasons, it's like they represent Winter Island, Summer Island, Spring Island
& Autumn Island to make a Fifth appear in the Middle (Capital)
Is there something interesting that appeared in Capital that Oda didn't mention yet ???
Of course there is, it's that Huge Mountain Fujiyama (A Rock)
That's why Wano is so special & Oda's Editor said it's related to One Piece & Sengoku hinted there is a Hidden Secret in it

Red Line too is a combination of Islands, didn't something appear ??
Yes ofc, Mariejois have a Secret National Treasure

What about Kuri ? it's obviously the odd one, it's only Region that doesn't surround Capital, it was abandoned and ran by Outlaws, Orochi's Family seems to be related to it as you already mentioned before, which hints more at this "Outsider" theory

I believe God's Valley is another example just like Wano (Surrounded by four Islands) and guess what, there were Mountains there too
So whatever this is, it seems like certain people were trying to find something (First with Wano & then with God Valley)
Which seems to be WG themselves since they are both related to God Valley & Oars (Who most probably joined those Wano Regions)
I mean their Flag perfectly represent this

But One Piece can only be found thanks to Road Poneglyphs where Four Locations must be known
In other words, WG seems to know how to find One Piece, but they simply fail to know the Four Lands to help do it

And honestly the only place that WG failed to go to over hundreds of years and the only where no one can easily reach and the place that can make this "Something" they looking for appear wherever they are is "The Moon" !!
Even Roger when he was about to be executed said that One Piece is in that place as if he is mentioning a place that everyone knows
And yes, such a place exists and it's the Moon

And as i mentioned before, both Roger & Oden searched for Answers, one searched for D. & other for Kozuki and yet both ended in same place (Laugh Tale) so this mean Answers to both Name Mysteries are the same & one

This is why the name "Black Coal" makes perfect sense for me
 
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Its indeed Young Shiki so we can expect that this old hag was a member of ROCKS. So the chance is a high she might end responsible for the deal between Kaidou and Orochi.

Interisting is that we also saw the old hag during the Mountain God incidents.
First it was shown that she have knowledge about the mountain god. Second time she was shown framing Oden.
So we can expect Orochi and the old hag were also responsible for the mountain god incidents.
Yeah seeing how one of the faces she turned into was a young Shiki that would mean she was maybe part of Rocks, however if she was part of Rocks then she left the crew before the God Valley Incident seeing how during that time she was talking to Orochi was before the downfall of Rocks. Also yeah I noticed that the old hag was probably the same person during the mountain god incident that called Oden a cursed child, as for her being responsible for the deal between Orochi and Kaido yep that's what I was thinking that maybe she is the connection on how those two would end up allying with each other.
 
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Can anybody please show me the panel where the old lady with mane mane no mi turned into young shiki. :unsure::unsure::unsure:
 
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Its indeed Young Shiki so we can expect that this old hag was a member of ROCKS. So the chance is a high she might end responsible for the deal between Kaidou and Orochi.

Interisting is that we also saw the old hag during the Mountain God incidents.
First it was shown that she have knowledge about the mountain god. Second time she was shown framing Oden.
So we can expect Orochi and the old hag were also responsible for the mountain god incidents.

Also @Salah Eddine after reading the chapter I have to say you was right. Its indeed very similiar to Doflamingo - Trebol situation. Düring spoiler I didn't notice there was a flashback telling us the beginning of Orochis story.
[automerge]1576309878[/automerge]

During spoiler I expected it would end up being Orochi himself, but afer Reading the chapter I expect it will be a natural dead or she will die sacrificing herself to protect Orochi.
Now i'm hoping Mr. 2 shows up in Wano
 
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Can anybody please show me the panel where the old lady with mane mane no mi turned into young shiki. :unsure::unsure::unsure:


Shikis special eyebrows ;)
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then she left the crew before the God Valley Incident seeing how during that time she was talking to Orochi was before the downfall of Rocks.
You are right. She left crew at least 3 years before Gods Valley. 41 years ago Mountain god accident happened where she was present and Orochi became Yasus servant.
 
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Shikis special eyebrows ;)
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You are right. She left crew at least 3 years before Gods Valley. 41 years ago Mountain god accident happened where she was present and Orochi became Yasus servant.
Thank you. I didnt knew about it.
 
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Does Orochi have any living relatives? If he dies, is the Kurozumi Family wiped out?
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Also i'm wondering if Kyoshiro is the son of that assistant to Sukiyaki and will actually be an ally when he betrays and kills Orochi?

I mean given that we're seeing Orochi's backstory now, i'm hoping he finally dies (hopefully in Act 3) to destroy the Kurozumi plague
 
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Does Orochi have any living relatives? If he dies, is the Kurozumi Family wiped out?
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Also i'm wondering if Kyoshiro is the son of that assistant to Sukiyaki and will actually be an ally when he betrays and kills Orochi?

I mean given that we're seeing Orochi's backstory now, i'm hoping he finally dies (hopefully in Act 3) to destroy the Kurozumi plague
You should keep your expectations of Orochi dying low and I mean really low, I get that you want Orochi to die most people want to see him get killed but remember that Oda rarely kills off characters. For all we know Orochi will simply get defeated and imprisoned, don't get your expectations of Orochi dying high because it will only bring you disappointment if it doesn't happen.

As for his family who knows he could have some relatives out there but so far it seems to just be him, Kyoshiro will not be the one to defeat Orochi it should be Kin'emon as he has a more of a personal grudge against Orochi and it would make more sense for him to be the one to take down Orochi unless Kyoshiro ends up being Denjiro then maybe he can be the one to take down Orochi instead. Unless we get to the final battle during Act 3 and depending on how long it takes I don't think Orochi will be taken down during this current act, he will probably get defeated during Act 4 but who knows Orochi could get defeated by the end of Act 3.
 
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You should keep your expectations of Orochi dying low and I mean really low, I get that you want Orochi to die most people want to see him get killed but remember that Oda rarely kills off characters. For all we know Orochi will simply get defeated and imprisoned, don't get your expectations of Orochi dying high because it will only bring you disappointment if it doesn't happen.

As for his family who knows he could have some relatives out there but so far it seems to just be him, Kyoshiro will not be the one to defeat Orochi it should be Kin'emon as he has a more of a personal grudge against Orochi and it would make more sense for him to be the one to take down Orochi unless Kyoshiro ends up being Denjiro then maybe he can be the one to take down Orochi instead. Unless we get to the final battle during Act 3 and depending on how long it takes I don't think Orochi will be taken down during this current act, he will probably get defeated during Act 4 but who knows Orochi could get defeated by the end of Act 3.
He killed off Vergo and Monet... and in Wano he killed Yasuie already. Orochi doesn't have a purpose beyond Wano Arc and just imprisoning him does nothing if someone evil frees him and lets him takeover Wano again. That's why dying will eliminate the Kurozumi family and free Wano from the curse.
 
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He killed off Vergo and Monet... and in Wano he killed Yasuie already. Orochi doesn't have a purpose beyond Wano Arc and just imprisoning him does nothing if someone evil frees him and lets him takeover Wano again. That's why dying will eliminate the Kurozumi family and free Wano from the curse.
They will offer him to do seppuko, but Luffy will stop this shit.

Either Orochi dies like Scar in the Lion King or he will survive.
 
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He killed off Vergo and Monet... and in Wano he killed Yasuie already. Orochi doesn't have a purpose beyond Wano Arc and just imprisoning him does nothing if someone evil frees him and lets him takeover Wano again. That's why dying will eliminate the Kurozumi family and free Wano from the curse.
Who says he won't have a purpose beyond Wano, if Oda wants Orochi to have some role in the future then he will. Even if someone does free him he can't take over Wano again because everyone by that point will know what Orochi has done and his main backer Kaido will be gone as well, so him taking over Wano again a second time will never happen. Him dying and freeing Wano from the Kurozumi Family curse is what you think, if Oda wants to have him imprisoned instead then that's good enough for him. No one was is denying that Orochi might die but it's best to keep your expectations very low, if he doesn't end up dying don't act all shock and then whine and complain about it.
 
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Every chapter of this flashback has been 10/10 for me. What a time to be alive.


Hopefully, in this flashback, we get to see reaction of the Whitebeard and Roger Pirates in regards to Oden's death.

It's gonna be sad af. I am not ready :catcry:
 
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