Chapter Discussion One Piece - Chapter 970: Oden vs Kaido

[Salah Eddine]

Think about it. In the BGstory Izo and Kiku were portrayed inseperably. Instead of leaving Kiku in a safe place Izo took Kiku with him.

Then Oden disappear together with Kiku. Tell me which of the Scabbards suffered the most?

Ending with the super empathic Inu and Neko explaining Kiku why Izo keep staying with WB.

What Kind of explanation do you expect from these trolling Inu and Neko? My bet something "Izo is happy as Pirate, happier then ever". Kiku must have felt like he was a burden for his brother.

Then she returned to the future learning that her Brother didn't even try to take revenge for him. And what happened then? She was again left behind.

Kiku doesn't look like he was a fan of Kinemons plan.



No. I bet He is a good traitor and that only Kaidou and Orochi knew about the Traktors identity. Neither the Calamaties nor the Onibawanshu nor Kyoshiro should know about the traitor and especially not some meaningless fodders.
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I am up for one of the most emotional fights ever happened in OP.

Izo vs Kiku!

Ending with Kiku start to regret what he has done.

Yes, he missed his brother so ?
Izo himself followed Oden & jumped and he himself decided not to return to Wano, how is this a reason for Oda to create a Traitor who is destroying Wano for 200 chapters ?! Oda himself when asked about Izo in SBS, said to not give it much thought and he will explain it later because it's not that important, he just wanted to explain how Izo from Wano joined WBP, that's all

You think Kiku was like "My brother didn't come back" so i'm gonna make Zou suffer and almost all Minks die, gonna endanger Oden who saved me and my brother when we were little and all his Retainers, i will endanger Toki & her innocent Children & i will ruin the lives of 5000 Men who try to oppose Kaido just because i miss my Brother who is still ALIVE anyway. You want Kiku to be a Psycho ??

And you said which of Scabbards suffered most ??
Let me remind u of few facts

Kawamatsu was treated so badly in Wano & lost his Mother there and was almost crucified & he isn't from Wano
Ashura Doji was a Criminal and only Scabbard who got beaten by Oden
Inu & Neko aren't even from Wano and they also were almost crucified
Raizo is only scabbard who wanted to join Oden himself and not randomly found after he was working with Fukurokuju !!!
Denjiro didn't even make an appearance in present day and we literally know nothing about him

So we have three outsiders from Wano, one Criminal, one very Mysterious Scabbard and one who literally worked with the Enemy before and could be potential Spy, but you instead suspect the guy who was saved by Oden since very young age and his Brother is alive and well and left Wano by his own choice ??

Even if we check which Scabbards can secretly send messages to Orochi, we know that Raizo is a Ninja so a Master of stealth and he can use other Ninja, Inurashi can send a Mink, Denjiro's location is unknown now, Kanjuro can use his DF ... etc

Kiku is literally the least suspicious of the Scabbards, least motivated, the one who most lack a way to send info to Orochi and who joined Oden the youngest and stayed in Wano the most and lost no one

If you want a Rivalry Fight, we already have Cat vs Dog who are both Rulers of Zou so not only it will be a much better fight and bigger but the rivalry is justified and there is something to fight for and we also have the mystery of why they hated each other which needs answering

Izo vs Kiku is lackluster and u are including a Character who isn't in Wano at all, nor even hinted he will return

 

[Nessos]

Kiku is literally the least suspicious of the Scabbards, least motivated, the one who most lack a way to send info to Orochi and who joined Oden the youngest and stayed in Wano the most and lost no one

Kiku is literally the easiest to manipulate. Kiku lost his whole family and was raised by His brother.

Now compare ot to the others. Oden become the one they look up to, Oden was the one give them a reason to live. Kiku was a little kid that followed his brother taken away by Oden. Without Oden Izo had never left Wano, especially not without Kiku.

Kawamatsu was treated so badly in Wano & lost his Mother there and was almost crucified & he isn't from Wano

Oden saved his ass. Orochi & Kaidou throw him into prison.

Ashura Doji was a Criminal and only Scabbard who got beaten by Oden

Oden gave him a reason to change his life. Still hunted by Beast Pirates.

Inu & Neko aren't even from Wano and they also were almost crucified

They see a deeper meaning in the relationship between Kozuki Clan and Minks. And you really think they would still work as traitors after the Mink genocide?

Raizo is only scabbard who wanted to join Oden himself and not randomly found after he was working with Fukurokuju !!!

As I mentioned multiple times. Raizo is a good candidate, but the whole Raizo infiltrates Udon plot would end up being pointless.

Denjiro didn't even make an appearance in present day and we literally know nothing about him

And? How should he know about Hiyori being alive or Udon? As you mentioned He wasn't present.


Your defense against Kiku is also quite bad.
Not good enough to send a Message to Orochi, but good enough to get Intel informations of the enemy?
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Izo vs Kiku is lackluster and u are including a Character who isn't in Wano at all, nor even hinted he will return

Neko is one the way to gather WBP as allies. And with the reveal of Izo being connected to the scabbards, especially him being Kikus Brother, it became quite obviouse that Izo will come together with Neko.

 

[Salah Eddine]

Now compare ot to the others. Oden become the one they look up to, Oden was the one give them a reason to live. Kiku was a little kid that followed his brother taken away by Oden. Without Oden Izo had never left Wano, especially not without Kiku.

Izo can come back any time he wants ?
And they were Super Poor & Hungry, Oden saved them too, check Chapter 962
Oden was only person who treated them well and fed them and they cried from joy

As i said before, All Scabbards Cried, Suffered, Fought Beasts Pirates, looked up to Oden and were saved by him & they all helped Alliance one way or another, so it doesn't matter who is Traitor among them, they all showed Loyalty & Suffering & it will shock us if any one of them is Traitor

As i said, Toki is my First Suspect anyway

 

[Nessos]

Izo can come back any time he wants ?
And they were Super Poor & Hungry, Oden saved them too, check Chapter 962
Oden was only person who treated them well and fed them and they cried from joy

As i said before, All Scabbards Cried, Suffered, Fought Beasts Pirates, looked up to Oden and were saved by him & they all helped Alliance one way or another, so it doesn't matter who is Traitor among them, they all showed Loyalty & Suffering & it will shock us if any one of them is Traitor

As i said, Toki is my First Suspect anyway

I just say Kiku is for me top suspect. Since anyone else can be easily debunked and certain moves wouldn't make sense. Thats something I can't say for Kiku.

Kiku was a little kid. Who lost his Family and got raised by his brother. Oden helped them and treated them well, but then again Kiku was left behind. Kiku was still a kid back then. A Kid loosing his most important person is easier to manipulate then an adult.

You couldn't present anything to show that Kiku being the traitor is doubtful.
Only thing you say "he fought and cried alongside others". Kiku is an actor. Kiku could have easily contacted Orochi while the others move to Zou.

The evil Toki plot is for me over the top. Getting attacked, threatening her own family, end up sending herself to another time Just to vetray her Kids in the future again?
Thats too much conspiracy for me.

And you really wanna tell that you don't think Izo will come together with Neko. Especially after the stuff we learned in the Backflash.
Or are still talking about its not Odens fault its Izos fault?
I have already posted, Kiku doesn't only feel betrayed by Oden but also by his brother. Oden ist the reason Izo left Kiku. And Kiku learned he was a burden for Kiku. Kiku must be frustated and full hatred against Oden and his brother.

 

[Lemonade]

I made theories & arguments on why some Scabbards can be Traitors (Mainly, Inu, Raizo & Kanjuro) but that's only if the traitor is truly a Scabbard. Imo i still bet that Toki is behind everything

And without trying to speculate about what she did/is doing, the best argument is that even in Flashback, Oda decided to tell us nothing about her or even make her relevant so it's obvious that she will play a role in Present Day

This may be a bit far fetched but I'm pretty sure Hiyori and Toki are the traitors. I think Toki isn't the character with a determination to give up living, as she jumped through time several times. It must be a pretty messed up situation. If she is alive (which could be falsified next chapter idk) she could be held captured with seastone cuffs and goes as a hostage for Hiyori. It might be that Toki was the intel that told Orochi (maybe through torture) about the jump to the future. In the past Hiyori was held captured and now both switched roles for the other.
This would actually be something so sad, befitting the traitor-role. Don't forget, that Toki still has the history behind her back.

Why would Toki be the traitor? That really doesn't make sense based on the flashbacks and the fact she got injured. Also Kaido already said there was a spy well in advance so a traitor must be working for him already.

 

[Gambit]

I am staking my paycheck on Kanjuro. That bish smells scummy ever since I saw his panel...

 

[Salah Eddine]

Why would Toki be the traitor? That really doesn't make sense based on the flashbacks and the fact she got injured. Also Kaido already said there was a spy well in advance so a traitor must be working for him already.

Orochi started ruling before Oden even returned to retrieve Wano Poneglyph
Before that, there was no strange incidents at all

The first notable thing that happened which was possibly the work of a traitor is when Toki got injured
In other words, the first traces of a Traitor happened exactly when Toki & Inu/Neko returned to Wano

In that period of time, when Oden was with Roger & all his Family & Scabbards were in Wano, Kaido & Orochi didn't try to kill Momo
Even Traitor didn't try to if he really hates Oden so much !!
But when Kin'emon & others tried to attack Orochi, Beasts Pirates were already informed and they attacked Momo and then Toki got injured
And that happened 6 months before Oden returned and Beasts Pirates never tried hurting Momo again !!!

Do you see where i'm going at ?
A Traitor existed before Oden returned to Wano & Oden's Family was never touched, only once when Kin'emon & others tried to attack first !!
So it's pretty clear that Kaido & Orochi didn't care much about Oden's Family or his Scabbards before he returned, so it proves that Traitor's goal isn't to kill Oden's Family or Retainers, the Traitor is simply preventing rebels against Orochi & Kaido

What if this Traitor isn't actually helping Kaido & Orochi win, but is actually helping Rebels not fight before the right time
Someone who knows when Wano is gonna be opened, someone who decided to send Scabbards exactly 20 years into future even though he could have sent them lesser years and still save them and nothing will change about their plan to recruit allies
Actually 20 years helped Kaido more since he became Yonko & now have much bigger Army & Smiles & more Weapons ... etc

Toki knows the right time and only time when Orochi & Kaido can be defeated, and she was putting things into motion to lead to that promised day, that's why she did all she did, and that's why she can have a Prophecy and that's why she wanted to return to Wano after 800 Years and that's why she is still mysterious even in Flashback

It's because Toki's mission is to fulfill the prophecy of Void Century and open Wano and she have to make sure that things go according to plan for the right time for that prophecy to finally happen

Because you people keep checking things that were leaked to find the Traitor instead of finding things that weren't leaked !!!
If Traitor really wanted everyone dead, he would have done so, all Scabbards had more knowledge than just what Orochi learned
Instead everything that happened is to prevent Rebels when they actually about to happen, like prevent Kin'emon & others from attacking Orochi before Oden's return, preventing Oden from attacking Onigashima, preventing Alliance from meeting, preventing allies from joining .. etc

But if Traitor really wanted Momo dead, he would have done so
Traitor literally told Orochi about Sunny's Location, u think he couldn't have also informed him that Momo is staying in Oden's Castle alone with just Kiku or Kin'emon or Chopper ???

Momo actually arrived to Wano before Luffy & Co. and yet no attempt on his life
Jack went to Zou and never asked about Momo even though he faced Two Scabbards, he only wanted Raizo

It's very very obvious that this Traitor prevents Rebels not want their Death
And only person who match this description and have solid justification is Toki herself

Not to mention that Hiyori is also very Mysterious, we still don't know how she survived against Kyoshiro & escaped, why she trusted Zoro so fast as if she knows what's gonna happen & Oda made sure that Toki & Hiyori have a time alone in end of Flashback
She is also only person who knows about the Moon Tattoo, knew their Initial Meeting Place, she also decided to leave Kawamatsu when he was taking care of her, not to mention that none of Scabbards knows where she was hiding, only Kawamatsu
So how did Orochi learn that Hiyori is in northern Graveyard ?

My theory is that everything is planned by Toki & Hiyori to set things in motion just for sake of Greater Good
This is Oda, i can definitely see a big Plot Twist like this, where we always assumed there is a Traitor and then finally find out that there was no traitor at all

Just like he tricked us by making us think Minks don't have Raizo and hate Samurai and then revealed that they are very close allies
It's author's deception

Whether Toki/Hiyori have an Ally among Scabbards helping them do this is unknown but this is just a general idea, i didn't go into details

 

[Nessos]

Jack went to Zou and never asked about Momo even though he faced Two Scabbards, he only wanted Raizo

Jack went to Zou not knowing about Inu and Neko. And he never faced them, how should he have recognize them as scabbards?

He was send to Zou after Doflamingos men hunted Kanjuro, Kinemon and Momo in Dressrosa.

Its clear why Jack was only after Raizou.
And he also was informed that have to bring a fleet if he attacks Zou.

 

[Salah Eddine]

Jack went to Zou not knowing about Inu and Neko. And he never faced them, how should he have recognize them as scabbards?

He was send to Zou after Doflamingos men hunted Kanjuro, Kinemon and Momo in Dressrosa.

Its clear why Jack was only after Raizou.
And he also was informed that have to bring a fleet if he attacks Zou.

It doesn't matter whether he recognized them or not
Jack never asked about Momo which means he knew that only Raizo is there
And even if he knew Momo & others are in Dressrosa, why didn't he go to get them directly, why bother 5 days for just Raizo ?
And even if you insist and say that he let Doffy hunt them for him, it still won't explain why all thar army & 5 days for just Raizo
Worse than that is how did Jack knew that it's "Raizo" specifically

From Jack perspective, it's Momo with three Samurai, how does Jack know that the one who is in Zou is named "Raizo" and the two in Dressrosa aren't "Raizo" ?? xD
You told me that Jack doesn't know Inu & Neko, but he also doesn't know all other Scabbards except for Kawamatsu maybe
And even if we assume that he was informed of the exact names of the three that went to Zou, how did he know the exact name of the one who stayed in Zou alone ??

From Wano Perspective, ALL Scabbards are nowhere to be found, only one they had was Kawamatsu and even Beasts Pirates in the Prison didn't know who he is, and Inu & Neko can be assumed to be in Zou but even Jack doesn't know about them

So please tell me, how does Jack got the exact names of the Scabbards who appeared in Wano ? the exact names of the three who left Wano ?and the exact name of the one who reached Zou alone ?

 

[Nessos]

From Jack perspective, it's Momo with three Samurai, how does Jack know that the one who is in Zou is named "Raizo" and the two in Dressrosa aren't "Raizo" ?? xD

What if they know that based on description that only Raizou was missing.

And even if you insist and say that he let Doffy hunt them for him, it still won't explain why all thar army & 5 days for just Raizo

And I like you I can just repeat myself. Its not just Raizou, it is also Minks themselves. Breaking the spirit of a potential danger.
The problem are not the scabbards alone also the allies they could gather.

 

[Salah Eddine]

What if they know that based on description that only Raizou was missing.

And I like you I can just repeat myself. Its not just Raizou, it is also Minks themselves. Breaking the spirit of a potential danger.
The problem are not the scabbards alone also the allies they could gather.

That wasn't my question but okay

 

[Suppiluliuma]

Think about it. In the BGstory Izo and Kiku were portrayed inseperably. Instead of leaving Kiku in a safe place Izo took Kiku with him.

Then Oden disappear together with Kiku. Tell me which of the Scabbards suffered the most?

Ending with the super empathic Inu and Neko explaining Kiku why Izo keep staying with WB.

What Kind of explanation do you expect from these trolling Inu and Neko? My bet something "Izo is happy as Pirate, happier then ever". Kiku must have felt like he was a burden for his brother.

That motive just does not make any sense, imo.
I'm sorry..

Why would Kiku ruin the entirety of Wano, as well as the Zou minks, and kill her fellow scabbards, just because her brother is "happy as a pirate sailing with Whitebeard"?? Inu and Neko weren't trolling her when they informed her about Izo, what are you talking about? How does any of that justify Kiku having hatred for Izo??

If she realized she was a burden, why hate Izo? Why not herself, for instance? If I realized I was a burden to my parents, I'm not gonna hate my parents... I'm gonna hate myself, and try not to be too much a burden....

Then she returned to the future learning that her Brother didn't even try to take revenge for him. And what happened then? She was again left behind.

Kiku doesn't look like he was a fan of Kinemons plan

If she was the traitor, wouldn't she actually be happy with Kinemon's plan, for being left behind and informing Orochi whenever she wants to??

And if she missed her brother so much, she would've fought with the scabbards and NOT be a traitor. Why? Because the scabbards wanted to achieve Oden's goals: open Wano's borders.... If Wano's borders are opened, then she can just fuck off and look for her brother again, without getting in trouble with the Wano people..

No. I bet He is a good traitor and that only Kaidou and Orochi knew about the Traktors identity. Neither the Calamaties nor the Onibawanshu nor Kyoshiro should know about the traitor and especially not some meaningless fodders.

So let's say that Kaido and Orochi are the only ones who know her identity. That means she would've had some sort of introduction with them sometime during this 3 month duration she was in Wano by herself. She could've had something to say about the scabbards or the moon tattoo or any reliable info leak right from that period that would make them trust her... But nothing seemed to leak until 3 months later when Kinemon et al arrived.

And you may say "she revealed Raizo's location in Zou"... But even that seems unlikely... Kinemon took ALL of them bar Kiku to Zou; if Kiku leaked their destination, Jack would've been looking for ALL of them, not just Raizo... Kiku would never have any idea that Kinemon et al had their ship wrecked on the way to Zou and the party separated. If Kiku leaked their destination, Jack would've been looking for all of them, not just Raizo.​

And even Kinemon says they weren't put on wanted posters, and no-one suspected a thing from the moment they re-entered the country... if Kiku was the traitor, then surely... she would've told Orochi or Kaido that Kinemon would return to Wano with allies, and those "meaningless fodders" you talk of would be having wanted posters and hunting Kinemon et al from the moment they arrived, and not 30 chapters into Wano..

Spoiler

Hell, if she was left behind for 2-3 months, she could've even informed Orochi back then about the crescent moon tattoo thing that her and the others found out from Jibuemon... and that they came 20 years from the past... and then all these "meaningless fodders" would be hunting those people wearing the crescent moon tattoos as soon as Wano arc started, and not 30 chapters in..

But this was not the case.
Orochi only knew about the crescent moon tattoo only 3 months after it was revealed.


And this is related to the question in my first post that you just dodged, and still haven't answered:

1) The fact that she knew the crescent moon tattoo from Jibuemon, along with Kinemon et al: If she was the traitor, then why didn't she tell Orochi about the crescent moon tattoo thing as soon as Kinemon et al left Wano? She had every opportunity to leak this info, why would she only tell Orochi 3 months later, when Luffy arrived??

And if you reply with "to confirm that Kinemon will use these guys", that's not a convincing answer.

It was obvious that Kinemon would be using the guys who had this tattoo to buff up the numbers for the rebellion at that time... if Kiku informed Orochi about this much earlier when she was the only one who remained in Wano for 2-3 months straight, then Kinemon et al wouldn't be able to do anything... Kiku could've accomplished a lot more if she leaked that info earlier, assuming she was the traitor... But yet, Orochi only knew about the tattoo 2-3 months later?

 

[Marco]

This is the most talked about chapter on thrillerbark, yet it is an average i think :/