Chapter Discussion One Piece - Chapter 970: Oden vs Kaido

[Salah Eddine]

The traitor informed Orochi about Udon. Why even destroying the communication following by revealing everything. It doesn't make much sense.
About Raizo and Zou only 3 were hunted in Dressrosa. Based on discreption they might now who is the missing one. And its highly likely that Kiku also know how to reach Zou.

Interisting it is als the first time Beast Pirates attack Zou hinting that the taitor is one of Kinemon, Raizou, Kanjuro and Kiku.

Apparently u completely didn't read what i wrote or didn't understand my point

 

[Nessos]

Apparently u completely didn't read what i wrote or didn't understand my point

Why did Jack go for Raizou?
-> The other 3 were hunted by Doflamingo in Dressrosa, they most likely know that only Raizou is missing based on description
-> They most likely know about Zou, because Traitor told about Zou
Actually I myself thought about Raizou being the traitor, they may have shipwrecked because of him and he might have informed Beast Pirates before entering Zou, but then the Udon plot doesn't make much sense.

What did Raizou do in Udon?
-> allied up with Caribou
-> feed Hyo and Luffy
-> freed Kawatsu and organized his weapon
-> destroyed the communication of Udon
I mean Raizou could have letting Caribou disappear by revealing him to Queen instead of cooperating with him.
And Udon was revealed by the traitor being in charge of Allies was revealed,-Orochi knew it was a false report.

Based on exclusion process only Kiku will be left as potential traitor as long as we don't expect Traito to be someone unimportant background character.

 

[Rawrwick]

Toki's smiles were too suspicious for my taste this chapter. I could even lean towards saying, that she could be a traitor as well. All along it was an amazing chapter as always. I hope the next chapter to fuse with the present.

 

[Salah Eddine]

Why did Jack go for Raizou?
-> The other 3 were hunted by Doflamingo in Dressrosa, they most likely know that only Raizou is missing based on description
-> They most likely know about Zou, because Traitor told about Zou
Actually I myself thought about Raizou being the traitor, they may have shipwrecked because of him and he might have informed Beast Pirates before entering Zou, but then the Udon plot doesn't make much sense.

What did Raizou do in Udon?
-> allied up with Caribou
-> feed Hyo and Luffy
-> freed Kawatsu and organized his weapon
-> destroyed the communication of Udon
I mean Raizou could have letting Caribou disappear by revealing him to Queen instead of cooperating with him.
And Udon was revealed by the traitor being in charge of Allies was revealed,-Orochi knew it was a false report.

Based on exclusion process only Kiku will be left as potential traitor as long as we don't expect Traito to be someone unimportant background character.

Why can't you focus for a second
My question is why Jack wanted Raizo specifically ???
I'm not saying he is Traitor, i'm just saying why he needed Raizo ???

 

[Nessos]

Why can't you focus for a second
My question is why Jack wanted Raizo specifically ???
I'm not saying he is Traitor, i'm just saying why he needed Raizo ???

Because he is one of the scabbards. Also trying to find out if the Mink represents a danger.

 

[Salah Eddine]

Because he is one of the scabbards. Also trying to find out if the Mink represents a danger.

Jack brought his entire army just for Raizo and fought for 5 days and no he wasn't looking for Scabbards because he didn't care about Inu & Neko even though they were Scabbards, and didn't even ask them about Momo !!! he only wanted Raizo, just Raizo
Even Kaido didn't care much about Ashura and completely forgot about him after their short talk
It's clear that Jack's orders were to retrieve Raizo only at all costs

 

[Nessos]

Jack brought his entire army just for Raizo and fought for 5 days and no he wasn't looking for Scabbards because he didn't care about Inu & Neko even though they were Scabbards, and didn't even ask them about Momo !!! he only wanted Raizo, just Raizo
Even Kaido didn't care much about Ashura and completely forgot about him after their short talk
It's clear that Jack's orders were to retrieve Raizo only at all costs

Prevent the scabbards who manage to leave Wano to gather allies. Just trying to prevent a new rebellion. They may also know that Minks could become strong enemies.

 

[crazyclown]

Oddly for me, this flashback made me doubt, that the traitor is even among the scabbards, they have been portrayed consistently loyal and I just can't point out any suspicious behavior from them in this flashback. I agree the reasoning that the traitor has to be someone close for it to mean anything, but at the same time we should not tunnel vision to only the scabbards when looking for the traitor.

 

[Gambit]

Toki's smiles were too suspicious for my taste this chapter. I could even lean towards saying, that she could be a traitor as well. All along it was an amazing chapter as always. I hope the next chapter to fuse with the present.

I mean, letting Oden fck himself all the way to her tummy? But yeah, Her smile is fcking suspicious.

 

[Saikō no Kenshi]

Tbh I was expecting more from Oden slicing Kaido. I was underwhelmed by the art work, it seems Oda didn’t care much.

I mean the X-Mark Slash looked like some Kindergarten kid grabbed some felt pen and scribbled an ugly Cross.

 

[kiiro94]

Talking about the traitor, its kinda weird now. Why?

• Well, we know that Jack was just a kid in the flashbacks.
• Orochi did not knew that the scabbards returned until Wano saga.

So why would Jack go after Raizou when he never saw him or even knew they were back?
Why didnt Jack matter about Neko and Inu when they also belonged to the sccabbards?

The only answer is that Kaido was most likely researching information if they really have returned and since Jack was a kid, he didnt know about the appearance of Neko and Inu. In fact, Kaido could had thought that they were dead and reaching Zou is almost impossible since the elephant is moving always.

Now, how strong is that Kaido? IMO he is at best Admiral tier. BTW I think Emperors > Admirals.

Reasons? Kinemon, when he saw the power of Luffy when he defeated Doflamingo, was confident that he had enough power to defeat Kaido. Of course Kinemon does not know how strong Kaido is in the present.

And as Luffy and Zoro are near power, Zoro might as well have power near or equal to Oden, aka, Kaido from 20 years ago.

 

[Suppiluliuma]

Jack brought his entire army just for Raizo and fought for 5 days and no he wasn't looking for Scabbards because he didn't care about Inu & Neko even though they were Scabbards, and didn't even ask them about Momo !!! he only wanted Raizo, just Raizo
Even Kaido didn't care much about Ashura and completely forgot about him after their short talk
It's clear that Jack's orders were to retrieve Raizo only at all costs

That's actually a very good point.

And yeah, Jack brought his entire army to Zou just so he could retrieve Raizou, but yet Inu and Neko were also scabbards but Jack just wanted Raizou... and he also didn't even ask for Momo.

If I had to guess... maybe, it could be that Jack wasn't around 20 years ago, and he joined the beast pirates much later. I mean, if he's 27 y.o in the present (if the vivre cards are true), that would make him 7 y.o or something when Oden fought Kaido.. it could be possible he joined after Oden's fight??

So I think Jack was just ordered to retrieve Raizo, but never knew that Inu and Neko were also scabbards... he probably doesn't even know who the scabbards are, since he was probably a newer recruit compared to King and Queen; we never even saw Jack in this chapter even, and hell, he thought Ashura was some regular bandit.

And a possible reason why Kaido's men in the factories recognized the scabbards in Udon was because they monitored those factories for 20 years or so; Jack and his army were probably guys that joined more recently.

But this is just a random guess, so I could be wrong.

Kiku the traitor.
Kurozumis died through high age or Denjirou killed them secretly followed by him applying as guard for Orochi with his alter ego Kyoshiro. Now he is waiting for the moment Kaidou is gone to kill Orochi ^^

Tbh, I agree that it is definitely one of the scabbards, but I highly disagree that Kiku is the traitor.
Few things came to my mind whenever Kiku was mentioned, but I'll mention 2 of those points for now..


1) The fact that she knew the crescent moon tattoo from Jibuemon, along with Kinemon et al: If she was the traitor, then why didn't she tell Orochi about the crescent moon tattoo thing as soon as Kinemon et al left Wano? She had every opportunity to leak this info, why would she only tell Orochi 3 months later, when Luffy arrived??

And if you reply with "to confirm that Kinemon will use these guys", that's not a convincing answer.

It was obvious that Kinemon would be using the guys who had this tattoo to buff up the numbers for the rebellion at that time... if Kiku informed Orochi about this much earlier when she was the only one who remained in Wano for 2-3 months straight, then Kinemon et al wouldn't be able to do anything... Kiku could've accomplished a lot more if she leaked that info earlier, assuming she was the traitor... It just doesn't make sense, does it??


2) Why didn't any of the beast pirates see her as an ally when she came with Luffy to rescue O-tama?? Why didn't Holdem recognize her?? Even the mouse-smile gifter made no mention of Kiku being with them, and said she was "just low class from leftover town, who isn't allowed to enter Orochi's territory"... Even when Kiku cut off Urashima's top knot, a BP member informed Holdem of "a woman cutting off the Yokozuna's top knot"... no indication of Kiku being with the BP, or indication that they even recognized her as a samurai at the time.

And when she put the mask in Udon, there was no indication of them thinking Kiku was on their side.... In other words, with or without the mask, no beast pirate member saw her as their ally; no indication of such.


Another thing of note is your proof in page 2 of this thread:

And Udon was revealed by the traitor being in charge of Allies was revealed,-Orochi knew it was a false report.

Based on exclusion process only Kiku will be left as potential traitor as long as we don't expect Traito to be someone unimportant background character.

This does not give any confirmation whatsoever of Kiku being the traitor. Why you ask?
Because nearly all of the scabbards knew this info as soon as it occurred.

As soon as Udon was liberated, Raizo informed Kinemon right away that Luffy was saved, Kawamatsu freed, Udon liberated, and 3,500 rebels joining. This was even before the ships were repaired, and even around the time Kinemon had the blueprints... And he was with some of the scabbards at this time as well, in ch 952.

And given the other info Orochi had at this time, detailed in a document as we see in this panel, it's very likely Orochi got this info much later. Why? Read the panels again... Hiyori being alive was also leaked... this was known by all the scabbards (apart from Nekomamushi) in ch 955; Kiku and Raizou were there with the other scabbards when this news was mentioned, and not in Udon.

 

[Nessos]

Another thing of note is your proof in page 2 of this thread:

That was not the proof for Kiku that was the proof for Orochi knowing about Udon.

And btw, Traitor didn't reveal to Orochi & Kaido that Alliance is in charge of Udon so is it really Kiku ?

I know everyone(besides Neko and Denjirou) knows about Udon and that Hiyori is back.
So the traitor have to be one of

Now process of Elimination.

• Shinobu -> Enemy thought she is dead and BF makes her to tge Most trustful member
• Hitetsu -> Hand out the strong Blades to the enemy and lives a life as a poor hiermit
• Ashura Douji -> Still hunted by the Beast Pirates
• Kawamatsu -> Imprisoned for decades
• Inuarashi -> Zou Always represent a danger, why did Beast Pirates never Attack Zou before? Still working as Traito after attempted Mink-Genocide? No way!(same can be applied on Neko)
• Kinemon -> too many chances to kill Momo succeeding in erasing Kozuki BL.
• Kanjuro -> Sacrificed himself to help Kinemon instead of killing Kinemon. Then supported the alliance in the fight against Doflamingo.
• Raizou -> As I allready mentioned make whole Udon plot useless.

Who is left? Kiku.
And there is nothing to defend. You just find stuff which backs up the Idea of Kiku being the traitor.

• Knowing about Jacks naval battle(before knowing Kinemon returned)
• Holding back against Holdem troups. Even prefered getting catched instead of fighting.
• And most important she had a reason to hate Oden. Oden took away her brother. And for years noone could explain her why.

And when she put the mask in Udon, there was no indication of them thinking Kiku was on their side....

Why should they even know Kiku? Kiku was send to the future and I doubt she would use the mask which she uses as traitor while both sides are there.

 

[Salah Eddine]

That was not the proof for Kiku that was the proof for Orochi knowing about Udon.

I know everyone(besides Neko and Denjirou) knows about Udon and that Hiyori is back.
So the traitor have to be one of

Now process of Elimination.

• Shinobu -> Enemy thought she is dead and BF makes her to tge Most trustful member
• Hitetsu -> Hand out the strong Blades to the enemy and lives a life as a poor hiermit
• Ashura Douji -> Still hunted by the Beast Pirates
• Kawamatsu -> Imprisoned for decades
• Inuarashi -> Zou Always represent a danger, why did Beast Pirates never Attack Zou before? Still working as Traito after attempted Mink-Genocide? No way!(same can be applied on Neko)
• Kinemon -> too many chances to kill Momo succeeding in erasing Kozuki BL.
• Kanjuro -> Sacrificed himself to help Kinemon instead of killing Kinemon. Then supported the alliance in the fight against Doflamingo.
• Raizou -> As I allready mentioned make whole Udon plot useless.

Who is left? Kiku.
And there is nothing to defend. You just find stuff which backs up the Idea of Kiku being the traitor.

• Knowing about Jacks naval battle(before knowing Kinemon returned)
• Holding back against Holdem troups. Even prefered getting catched instead of fighting.
• And most important she had a reason to hate Oden. Oden took away her brother. And for years noone could explain her why.

Why should they even know Kiku? Kiku was send to the future and I doubt she would use the mask which she uses as traitor while both sides are there.

All Scabbards were imprisoned, all of them fought with Oden, all of them Cried, all of them helped Alliance in one way or another, all of them had chance to kill Momo & all of them were Loners even without Oden
So i'm sorry but u can't use those Arguments to say Kiku is Traitor and others can't be

Have you read Doffy's Backstory ?! You think Oda is gonna jump from that to "Traitor because his Brother decided to stay with WB" ?!
C'mon, we are talking about someone who really doesn't care about Wano or the Alliance, not just Oden, someone who was a Traitor even before Oden came back !!! (You think Toki's getting injured wasn't work of Traitor ?)
Also Kiku & Izo were very Poor, Hungry & badly treated & Oden saved them, you think Kiku jumped from that to absolutely hate Oden & all Wano Alliance just because her brother jumped on WB's Ship and decided not to come back ?

Traitor is 100% among those shown in Zou Arc, there is absolutely no way that Oda tells us that there is a Traitor and let us try to guess and he is actually someone who won't be introduced until 100 Chapters later !!

So it's either Kin'emon, Kanjuro, Raizo, Inu or Neko and we can remove Neko since he isn't present in Wano
So it's one of the other Four

 

[Suppiluliuma]

That was not the proof for Kiku that was the proof for Orochi knowing about Udon.

It was an indirect way coming from you to assert that Kiku was the traitor, in your post.
My reply was relevant to this.

I know everyone(besides Neko and Denjirou) knows about Udon and that Hiyori is back. So the traitor have to be one of

Now process of Elimination.

• Shinobu -> Enemy thought she is dead and BF makes her to tge Most trustful member
• Hitetsu -> Hand out the strong Blades to the enemy and lives a life as a poor hiermit
• Ashura Douji -> Still hunted by the Beast Pirates
• Kawamatsu -> Imprisoned for decades
• Inuarashi -> Zou Always represent a danger, why did Beast Pirates never Attack Zou before? Still working as Traito after attempted Mink-Genocide? No way!(same can be applied on Neko)
• Kinemon -> too many chances to kill Momo succeeding in erasing Kozuki BL.
• Kanjuro -> Sacrificed himself to help Kinemon instead of killing Kinemon. Then supported the alliance in the fight against Doflamingo.
• Raizou -> As I allready mentioned make whole Udon plot useless.

Yes.

The traitor is definitely narrowed down to one of these people, as all the info Orochi had from the traitor the second time round originated from this meeting... but you are oversimplifying the "process of elimination".

Look at things objectively, not just at things you want to happen.

Who is left? Kiku.
And there is nothing to defend. You just find stuff which backs up the Idea of Kiku being the traitor.

• Knowing about Jacks naval battle(before knowing Kinemon returned)
• Holding back against Holdem troups. Even prefered getting catched instead of fighting.
• And most important she had a reason to hate Oden. Oden took away her brother. And for years noone could explain her why.

If there is "nothing to defend", then answer both of my two points, jeez...

No offense, Nessos.. But I get a sense of aggressiveness coming from your reply.
And I'm only making one post... Dude, I'm not confronting you. I'm only trying to put up some discussion here.

• Knowing about Jacks naval battle(before knowing Kinemon returned)
• Holding back against Holdem troups. Even prefered getting catched instead of fighting.
• And most important she had a reason to hate Oden. Oden took away her brother. And for years noone could explain her why.

1) Of course she knows Jack's naval battle. She was assigned to remain in Wano by Kinemon to gather intel on Kaido's forces (chapter 920)... don't you remember? Go back to ch 920 and read Kinemon's statement.

Spoiler

2) Obviously, she would hold back against Holdem's troops... This was exactly what Kinemon's plan was. "The most important part of this plan is not to be exposed." She was following Kinemon's plan to the letter.

Spoiler

Kiku holding back against Holdem's troops is the only way to lay low for the enemy not to notice until the time is perfect to strike. Even Law said this to the straw hats before Luffy arrived..

Spoiler

3) That's not a good reason at all, imo.. Oden taking away her brother, so she proceeded to make all of Wano continue to live in hell?? If Kiku is the traitor, then surely.. a more sensible reason than this.

That just isn't a good motive

Why should they even know Kiku? Kiku was send to the future and I doubt she would use the mask which she uses as traitor while both sides are there.

Read my previous reply again:

"Why didn't any of the beast pirates see her as an ally when she came with Luffy to rescue O-tama?? Why didn't Holdem recognize her?? Even the mouse-smile gifter made no mention of Kiku being with them, and said she was "just low class from leftover town, who isn't allowed to enter Orochi's territory"... Even when Kiku cut off Urashima's top knot, a BP member informed Holdem of "a woman cutting off the Yokozuna's top knot"... no indication of Kiku being with the BP, or indication that they even recognized her as a samurai at the time.

And when she put the mask in Udon, there was no indication of them thinking Kiku was on their side.... In other words, with or without the mask, no beast pirate member saw her as their ally; no indication of such."


If she was the traitor, then surely, some members of the beast pirates - especially in Udon - would recognize her as an ally - with or without the mask - as some of them were there for 20 years. But there's no indication of such.

 

[crazyclown]

Ok as a staunch believer that none of the scabbards is the traitor, i'm gonna try and state my case.

First of all, I assume that if you suspect one of the scabbards is the traitor, it would mean you also believe that that person is already a traitor 20+ years ago and therefore must have met/have contacted Orochi/Kaido before.

Here we got to see Orochi's monologuing to himself. We see that he himself in unsure whether or not the scabbards are still alive.

Spoiler: Orochi's Train of Thought

Which to me proves that whoever is feeding Orochi his intel, is not one of the scabbards, why would the traitorous scabbard not make his identity known to Orochi? And conversely if Orochi don't believe the scabbards are still alive, why would he trust the intel from the traitorous scabbard so much?

 

[Salah Eddine]

Ok as a staunch believer that none of the scabbards is the traitor, i'm gonna try and state my case.

First of all, I assume that if you suspect one of the scabbards is the traitor, it would mean you also believe that that person is already a traitor 20+ years ago and therefore must have met/have contacted Orochi/Kaido before.

Here we got to see Orochi's monologuing to himself. We see that he himself in unsure whether or not the scabbards are still alive.

Spoiler: Orochi's Train of Thought

Which to me proves that whoever is feeding Orochi his intel, is not one of the scabbards, why would the traitorous scabbard not make his identity known to Orochi? And conversely if Orochi don't believe the scabbards are still alive, why would he trust the intel from the traitorous scabbard so much?

I made theories & arguments on why some Scabbards can be Traitors (Mainly, Inu, Raizo & Kanjuro) but that's only if the traitor is truly a Scabbard. Imo i still bet that Toki is behind everything

And without trying to speculate about what she did/is doing, the best argument is that even in Flashback, Oda decided to tell us nothing about her or even make her relevant so it's obvious that she will play a role in Present Day

 

[Nessos]

"Traitor because his Brother decided to stay with WB" ?!

Think about it. In the BGstory Izo and Kiku were portrayed inseperably. Instead of leaving Kiku in a safe place Izo took Kiku with him.

Then Oden disappear together with Kiku. Tell me which of the Scabbards suffered the most?

Ending with the super empathic Inu and Neko explaining Kiku why Izo keep staying with WB.

What Kind of explanation do you expect from these trolling Inu and Neko? My bet something "Izo is happy as Pirate, happier then ever". Kiku must have felt like he was a burden for his brother.

Then she returned to the future learning that her Brother didn't even try to take revenge for him. And what happened then? She was again left behind.

Kiku doesn't look like he was a fan of Kinemons plan.

If she was the traitor, then surely, some members of the beast pirates - especially in Udon - would recognize her as an ally - with or without the mask - as some of them were

No. I bet He is a good traitor and that only Kaidou and Orochi knew about the Traktors identity. Neither the Calamaties nor the Onibawanshu nor Kyoshiro should know about the traitor and especially not some meaningless fodders.
[automerge]1580726504[/automerge]
I am up for one of the most emotional fights ever happened in OP.

Izo vs Kiku!

Ending with Kiku start to regret what he has done.

 

[Rawrwick]

This may be a bit far fetched but I'm pretty sure Hiyori and Toki are the traitors. I think Toki isn't the character with a determination to give up living, as she jumped through time several times. It must be a pretty messed up situation. If she is alive (which could be falsified next chapter idk) she could be held captured with seastone cuffs and goes as a hostage for Hiyori. It might be that Toki was the intel that told Orochi (maybe through torture) about the jump to the future. In the past Hiyori was held captured and now both switched roles for the other.
This would actually be something so sad, befitting the traitor-role. Don't forget, that Toki still has the history behind her back.

 

[Nessos]

This may be a bit far fetched but I'm pretty sure Hiyori and Toki are the traitors.

I even thought about the possibility adding Kyoshiro aka Denjirou working together with Komurasaki aka Hiyori. Only to trick Orochi so that he feel in safe hands. But this actually doesn't fit with Orochi learning about Hiyori being alive.